Talk:Merlin

Antichrist?

My rewrite of this article was prompted by this passage in the original:

Stories of his origins include his birth as the intended Antichrist, being the offspring of a demon fathered on a virgin; but his expectant mother, realising what was amiss, had him baptized at birth to foil this Satanic plot. However, being half-demon, he still had tremendous magical powers.he was known as merliby

Now my memory is not as good as I think it was (e.g., I probably never could keep my facts in my head), but having read widely in the Arthurian mythos, I have never seen any suggestion that Merlin was wholy, partly, or when in costume on Hollowe'en, a demon! The people who told the stories of Arthur and Merlin before the 20th century would never lightly suggest that someone was kin to the Antichrist, not only because that personage was the ultimate evil made human, but his presence would be a harbinger of the Apocalypse. Merlin was always portrayed as a positive individual, an asset to the people of Britain, although in the later stories his desire for Nimue brought on his downfall.

I have to assume that this story of Merlin was written by someone who not only knew of the later legends of Merlin better than the earlier, but for whom "Antichrist" has the same connotation as any monster encountered in a Dungeons & Dragons game. In other words, someone from the last quarter of the 20th century.

If this is the creation of a published author, proper attribution would allow us to add this bizarre tale to this article. There are certainly enough bizarre tales about well-known personages -- for example the story of "The Great God Pan is dead" told in Plutarch. However, I suspect that this tale is just an imaginative creation of someone eager to add to the Wikipedia, and had never existed beyond this one article. But until we see more evidence either way, I'm placing this snippet of a story here in Talk. -- llywrch 02:11 Dec 21, 2002 (UTC)

Miguel de Cervantes's Don Quixote (17th century) mocks books about chivalry. Chapter XXIII of the second part. My translation:

This is my friend Durandarte, cream and mirror of inamoured and brave knights of his time. He is held here under a charm, as I and many others are, by Merlin, that charmer Frenchman that is said to be son of the devil; and what I believe is that he was not son of the devil, but that he knew, as they day, one nottch over the devil.

-- Error

I've seen other references to Merlin as the son of a demon and a mortal woman, some of which attribute the idea to the Geoffrey of Monmouth version. I have to admit, though, the bit about the Antichrist is a new one on me, and I agree with Llywrch that it sounds like a 20th century tack-on.

--Paul A 04:05 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)

The 'son of the devil' thing comes from a poem written by Robert De Boron a few decades after Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia. Although very few lines remain of the poem, it was translated into prose though so the material survives. Robert De Boron posits that Merlin's mother was raped by a demon. I will post some more later when I have more time but the first reference I found for this was Goodrich, Norma Lorre, Merlin, Franklin Watts, 1987, New York pp 42-44. 58.110.115.201 04:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record, I got the Merddyn / merde explanation from this web page. It seems credible, but I admit that it's weak evidence. -- Heron

That's actually the interpretation I've seen in the secondary literature. If further citations are needed (e.g., people with letters after their names, with a job at an educational institution, with papers published in peer-reviewed journals), I'll provide them. -- llywrch 21:00, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have to disagree that "most modern popular interpretations ...depict Merlin as a wizard of ultimate power." Many of the most popular modern works (e.g. Mary Stewart's trilogy) focus on the human side of Merlin. Some (e.g. MZB's Mists of Avalon) actually go to great lengths to point out his shortcomings. -- Meara

See Nigel Bryant's translation of Robert de Boron's 'Merlin' for the bit where the Demons set out to create "a man who would work to deceive others', so furious were they after the Harrowing of Hell. Joseph of Arimathea, Merlin, Perceval: the Trilogy of Arthurian Romances attributed to ROBERT DE BORON: 2001, Brewer -- Maryanne — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maryanne Cunningham (talk • contribs) 17:04, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Fiction

Was Historia Regum Britanniae intended as fiction?--Error 04:44, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well that depends, in part, on whether Geoffrey & his contemporaries believed that there was a genre known as fiction. I say this because I suspect few in the audience of a storyteller honestly thought everything they heard was the unvarnished, actual truth; they expected the truth stretched a little to fit the tale -- but at the same time, they expected their story tellers to tell a story accurately, & not to take liberties like change the ending.

So I guess the question then becomes, "Is the Historia Regum Britanniae a serious history or a tale told to entertain?" From what is known of the response of his contemporaries, few of them accepted his work as sober history comparible to, say Bede. William of Newburgh wrote that Geoffrey "disguised under the honourable name of history, thanks to his Latinity, the fables about Arthur which he took from the ancient fictions of the Britons and increased out of his own head." Having read Historia Regum Britanniae, I would say that it is clearly a low-brow account of its material: every person in the work is a stereotype, battles are fought between armies of enormous size, & provinces that are devestated one year are apparently fertile & bountiful the next.

However, the same could be said of several justly-forgotten medieval historians. Unlike theirworks, however the quality of the traditions shine through Geoffrey's mediocre ability, & I would say this is what captivated his audience.

So, in summary, I'd expect his readers were attracted to him for the story, not for the history. Some also uncritically assumed that what Geoffrey wrote was reliable history -- but their number were never large, & ceased to matter with the 17th century. -- llywrch 00:37, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have to admit, I didn't know any of this when placing it under fiction. Feel free to change the heading to "Related Literature" or whatever you feel is most accurate. In any case, I think this fact-vs-fiction discussion of Historia Regum Britanniae should be part of the main article or an article of its own, not buried in this talk page. It's good stuff! --68.85.27.88 01:53, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've put back, in slightly changed form, the Antichrist passage. See also the links I've provided in the bibliography to three different web sites which provide English versions of this planned Antichrist version as written by Robert de Boron. --User:jallan 23:04, 10 April 2004 (UTC)

That the medievals believed Merlin was part demon is believeable; for them to believe he was the Antichrist simply isn't. The Antichrist has so many eschatological associations (e.g., the end of the world) that it would not be lightly added to any story. If you think killing a dragon is difficult, how can a mortal physically battle the true Prince of Darkness? -- llywrch 19:01, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I realized I had accidently left out the word "Antichrist" in restoring the passage which I intended to change only enough to fit a slightly changed context. I have added it in again.

The link [1] was generated by searching in Google on [Antichrist OR Anti-christ Merlin] which found approximately 5,740 entries. While many of these are not pertinent, perhaps most of them, many of them do discuss Robert de Boron's account and use the term (though some probably do not know where exactly this form of the tale comes from).

The word almost always occurs in such discusions of this form of the legend because it fits. It is certainly not only used by writers of the later half of the twentieth century.

No-one believed that Merlin was "The Antichrist". THat is part of the point of the story. In Robert de Boron's version he was begotten by a devil as "an intended Antichrist", the indefinite article and the word "intended" being very important. Robert's story shows that by God's grace the devils' plans were overthrown. The mortal child of a devil was able to overcome the princes of darkness just as any mortal can do according to general Christian philosphy: through Christian baptism, chosing the right path, and trusting in God.

Read Robert de Boron's account from the second, third or fifith entry in the Bibliography. This account is the one best known to medieval folk.

Change the word "Antichrist" to lowercase if you wish. But I think "an intended antichist" or "an intended anti-christ" should stay as indicating the intentions of the devils. Nor is Merlin a perfect paragon of morality, even outside of the Prose Lancelot claim that Merlin never did any good in his life. Merlin's lechery is legendary in some tales. Merlin's love affair with Morgaine la Fee is covered in the Prose Lancelot, the Vulgate Merlin, the Post-Vulgate Merlin and the Prophecies of Merlin. From the medieval Perlesvaus ( http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Graal/branch20.html ):

"Lords, in this sepulchre was placed the body of Merlin, but never mought it be set inside the chapel, wherefore perforce it remained outside. And know of a very truth that the body lieth not within the sepulchre, for, so soon as it was set therein, it was taken out and snatched away, either on God's behalf or the Enemy's, but which we know not."

Neither explanation helps Merlin's reputation. This work also quite reasonably condemns Uther's deception of Igraine as enabled by Merlin as a sin. Robert de Boron himself is obviously somewhat uneasy about the matter but is stuck with the tale.

jallan 02:22, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That Fiction about Merlin section needs to be cleaned up. Citing any random story that has a walk-on by Merlin or a character named Merlin is rather dumb. We should stick to stories that are significantly featuring or "about Merlin" and that feature a Merlin recognisable as the one of legend. The Merlin in Amber, for example, shares nothing with the legendary character other than an ability to use magic, as far as I can see. Sending someone who wants to read about the character off to an Amber book would not be appropriate. I removed the Amber reference, but I'm not familiar with enough of the other material to go beyond that. That Dark Tower reference looks rather iffy.

Scott Dubin

Notable mentions page?

How about a page just for notable mentions or just mentions? Two I know off the top of my head are...

• Merlin is the first king of Xanth.
• Merlin is an Ancient from the Stargate series who built Avalon.

There may be others, but there could be a whole list of these. The main article wouldn't be tainted with the list.

(If this comment is on a user's talk page, please respond here.)

- Lady Aleena (17:46 on 23 December 2024)

Sounds better than having a list on this page, but I really don't see what use something like that would be other than to divert fans who want their favorite reference included. I'd just as soon remove it entirely.--Cúchullain t / c 22:31, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. -- Kjkolb 04:18, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Merlin (wizard) → Merlin – Merlin the wizard is by far the most common use of Merlin. The disambig should be at Merlin (disambiguation). Cúchullain ^t/c 18:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support as nominator.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - the bird and engine are separate. It is not sufficiently clear-cut. Better to leave it as it is. -- Beardo 06:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

  Comment The bird and engine are separate, but this individual is by far the best known Merlin. The page was moved here some time ago with no discussion.--Cúchullain ^t/c 06:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support as primary contemporary usage. This will also require moving Merlin to Merlin (disambiguation). Septentrionalis 18:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ayreon - The Final Experiment

The Final Experiment is a rock opera album from A Project called Ayreon. The man who made Ayreon is called Arjen Lucassen. The album has many singers that represents characters and tells a story.

In the Story, Merlin is the bad guy who locks up Ayreon(The Protagonist) in prison because he is jealous of his gift to forsee the future.

I am going to put The Final Experiment in to the Novels and Plays Section, because this is a rock opera.

Deimoss 04:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Introductory Paragraphs

I would humbly suggest that the first paragraph or two be uncluttered with names, excessive bold print, translations into Welsh, and other distractions. I see that the style of trying to jam all kinds of informaion and bold print into the first few sentences if very common in Wikipedia. However, to be honest, this makes the articles completely unreadable and unusable to the average reader. The average reader does not want to dig through a long boring bunch of minutae. The average reader wants to know quickly in a sentence or two about the topic, and why they should care. Based on what they read in the first paragraph or two, they might continue reading. Who really cares what his full name was in Welsh in the first sentence or two, when they are still trying to find out who Merlin is? That is my view.--Filll 13:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

a-hem! some of us have a high enough iq that we like etymologies and we do want the original languages, thank you. it frightens me how kids are becoming these days about historial things like original spellings of names of people and places. /end rant. ~ ladyfur ~^..^~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.52.121 (talk) 18:39, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

What on earth does this sentence mean?

The stories of Wyllt and Emrys have become different in the earliest texts that they are treated as separate characters, even though similar incidents are ascribed to both. I was simplifying this and I all of a sudden realized I do not know what it was supposed to mean. --Filll 04:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks like there should an "in" between "text" and "that". Totnesmartin 19:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

here is another I cannot understand: It seems that the name was taken to mean "Caer of [some man called] Myrddin".--Filll 05:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Caer means "City" in the Old Welsh (as in Caerleon, Caerwent, and Caer-Ligualid (Carlisle) to name a few). Not sure if that helps. --Narfil Palùrfalas 22:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Sun of a nun

"Geoffrey's version of the character was immediately popular. Later writers produced a fuller image of Merlin. Merlin was the son of a nun and an incubus." (from the intro) - who says this, geoffrey or the later writers? Totnesmartin 17:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It could be clearer. Geoffrey has the story about the incubus; the same story is told about Ambrosius Aurelianus in the Historia Brittonum. Geoffrey calls the fatherless boy Merlin Ambrosius, and makes him distinct from Ambrosius Aurelianus. However, in both Geoffrey and his source, the mother is a princess; she is a nun in Robert de Boron's Merlin and the later literature. I'll see what I can do to clear it up.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The merlin bird

At least some Arthurian fiction like Stephen Lawhead's Pendragon Cycle has Merlin being named after the bird. This is unquestionably fan-fiction, but is it the other way around or just coincidence? Did Geoffrey coin "Merlin(us)" or did he in effect rename the character after the bird? Uthanc 13:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

No. "Merlin" is the Latinized version of the Welsh place-name "Myrddin". Geoffrey of Monmouth presumably invented this Latinized form, according to the EBK site probably not wanting to confuse it with the French word merde, meaning excrement. --Narfil Palùrfalas 22:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Myrddin Emrys = Ambrosius Aurelianus

This article states clearly that Myrddin Emrys and Ambrosius Aurelianus were one and the same person. The EBK page does not seem to say this, and I'm wondering where the information came from and why the article sounds so definite on this. --Narfil Palùrfalas 22:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't say that, there's just a link to the Ambrosius page where more information can be found. Merlin Ambrosius, was the name Geoffrey of Monmouth gave to his composite figure we now call Merlin. Part of his inspiration came from stories about Ambrosius Aurelianus, hence the name. It seemed pretty clear to me, but perhaps not.--Cúchullain ^t/c 07:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Television

Wasn't there a British television series called something like "Young Merlin" in the seventies or early eighties? 80.43.10.130 11:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Myrddin

I included (Welsh language|Welsh 'Myrddin') after Merlin at the beginning of the article, but that was inexplicably removed by somebody calling it vandalism to insert the name of the character. I'd like to point out that a large number of articles on both mythological and historical persons include the name in the original language, and often in a number of languages. See Zeus, Odin, Roland and Sigurd for just a few examples. Is there any particular reason why this article should not confirm to that of similar mythological characters like Rolard or Sigurd? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinTremblay (talk • contribs)

Hey Martin, I responded to this on your talk page, but I'll bring it up here too. I don't think we should give the Welsh name in the first sentence because it's potentially confusing. While Myrddin is the Welsh name for Merlin, the modern concept of Merlin is really a composite figure deriving from the depiction in Geoffrey of Monmouth, who combined characteristics of the Welsh bard Myrddin Wyllt with stories of Aurelius Ambrosius. The character's development is described below, and I'm afraid that giving the Welsh name as an alternate spelling will create the impression that the later medieval Merlin is synonymous with the indiginous Welsh Myrddin.--Cúchullain ^t/c 05:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Then we probably ought to create a separate Myrddin page so that readers still have access to the information. ---G.T.N. (talk) 23:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it adds to an understanding of the modern idea of Merlin, to know that the Welsh/British Myrddin was an influential element in his origin. Actually, rather more than that. 122.162.148.173 (talk) 21:33, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Merlin As A Druidic Rank

A Scotch historian friend told me of celts and he said that "Merlin" is a hi druidic rank for men and is the highest in a certain region, like the Merlin of Britain or The Merlin of Gaul. I can't find him and his books right now so it would be good if someone can search through it. Also many of the things I read are alternates of the story created by christians later. By the way, The equal rank for women is "lady of the lake"87.101.51.52 17:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)Stefanos 20/07/2007

I think there is such a rank (Merlin) in some modern druidic religions. But I am not sure on this and doubt that this rank is very historical. Until you (or we) find sources for this, it cannot be put in the article. Do you happen to know the names of any of his books, or even the name of the historian? That might help, depending on what his books were about. --Narfil Palùrfalas 18:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I happen not to find him or his books othereide I would make an article myselfe. His name is Graham(GrayCloack)McKenzie, I have found some things but its still too early to tell. Thanks for your interest, hope yu find more.If you wish watch "Mists of Avalon" A Great movie realy showing the celtic way, for it was not a religion the way we thing of it.

Thank you

Nice article. I came here to help format a reference or do something, anything, to help, and find there are only two references for the whole article. I will see if I can find one in Google. But I do think that to reach GA this article needs more than two sources. Am I missing some refs (entirely possible)? No problem, but I wondered. Best wishes. -Susanlesch (talk) 19:26, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

• Done (added a ref and some text). "scan of" in the publisher field of the citation I added refers to either Harvard College or Harvard University. -Susanlesch (talk) 19:51, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the article badly needs more references. I think it is well-researched, but more refs would give the reader more confidence, especially given the subject's new age/sword and sorcery connections. 122.162.148.173 (talk) 21:35, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

First published in Paris in 1498

This sentence is a little unclear to me. Who or what was first published in 1498? Works by Merlin? Works depicting or including Merlin? If so what works? PyrE (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

False article name (?)

Just followed a link here, and apparently somebody messed with the pagename. Can somebody fix this? I can't seem to revert this change. Thomas Yen (talk) 15:12, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

What is this board's issue with bullet points?

They make for easier reading when compiling a list.

Is there some magic number after which they're suddenly rendered acceptable?

They're good enough for the rest of Wikipedia. Why aren't they permitted HERE? LizFL (talk) 08:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not an issue with the "board" (whatever you mean by that), it's an issue all accross Wikipedia. From WP:Embedded list: "In an article, significant items should be mentioned naturally within the text rather than merely listed." Writing in the paragraph form allows us to give context on why an item is important, while a list like this one is basically just a collection of random trivia, which is highly discouraged (WP:TRIVIA) Remember, this is supposed to be an encyclopedia article about the character Merlin, not a list compiling (a handful of) his appearances in modern media.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The Lost Years of Merlin

Hello. I was looking for this series that I read when I was young, and I didn't find it here. I did find a different Wikipedia article on it: Lost_Years_of_Merlin_series The Lost Years of Merlin is a set of 5 books by T.A. Barron. It's children's stuff, but it is REALLY GOOD children's stuff. I loved this series when I was young. I think it ought to be included in the literature section. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.202.235.183 (talk) 05:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Merlin, Thoth and Enoch

There are stories out there alleging that Merlin is a partial incarnation of Thoth/Enoch. It would be interesting if anyone could look into that. ADM (talk) 13:36, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Shakespeare

When listing literary references to Merlin one ought to include Shakespeare, who refers to him twice, in HENRY IV part 1 (by Hotspur) and in KING LEAR (by the Fool). In both cases Merlin is described as making obscure prophecies about the future of England. Shakespeare does not mention his connection with King Arthur, although the writer refers to Arthurian legends in both HENRY IV part 2 ( by Justice Shallow) and HENRY V (by Mrs. Quickly). CharlesTheBold (talk) 03:01, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Mists of Avalon

Merlin was also a character in the book The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley.

Rozzychan (talk) 04:42, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

2009 NBC TV Series

I'm supprized to see that the TV series on NBC this season does not have any mention in this article or on Wikipedia at all. I know nothing about the series, and came to Wikipedia to learn more. I'd write the article myself, but asside from knowing nothing about the series, I immagine that there is annother Wikipedian who specializes in TV serieses and could do a much better job. Hope this is in the right place. Cheers! 74.249.53.96 (talk) 00:31, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

• It is mentioned in the article: "In 2008, the BBC created a television series, also called Merlin".... Check Merlin_(TV_series)--Oconel (talk) 07:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Merlin today

Merlin was reborn many times over the centuries. He was a Druidic High Priest in the time of Christ and has served Earth - or rather his Spirit has - for millions of years. His latest incarnation began in 1986, making Merlin - today's Merlin - twenty-four years old. However, much of that time and many lifetimes besides were spent in ignorance of his heritage.

Merlin's greatest achievements in this lifetime include fighting alongside the Archangel Gabriel to free those in the grip of the Luciferic Force - pure evil. Subsequently Merlin fought Lucifer and killed him, freeing Earth and by extension the Galaxy from the Luciferic Force.

Merlin has also warded persons and people from evil this lifetime, and has even placed a ward over the whole of Earth. Current projects include repairing Earth's atmosphere and teaching people the psychic abilities that were called magic in Merlin's day. However, Merlin has yet to grow into his full power in service to Earth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.245.207 (talk) 01:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

um, yeah

The Disney version has its own section

???? - Uthanc (talk) 14:11, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

!!!! Looks like the result of a page merge. I've taken care of it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:18, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

The Merlin (Disney) still redirects here, we should re-establish it.SADADS (talk) 16:43, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Did, same text as was on the Merlin page, will see if their was anything better in history. SADADS (talk) 16:52, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know that the Disney Merlin really needs its own page, but the material certainly shouldn't all be here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

It really just needs some expansion of the real world information. He has been one of the more popular expressions of Merlin ever. It could be given in the context of the "Sword and the Stone" or it could be part of a "Sword and the Stone Universe" article but it should remain on Wikipedia as content. One day I went looking for information about the guy who voiced him, and the "Merlin (Disney)" page was helpful. SADADS (talk) 13:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The many faces of Merlin

According to the Welsh historian, Nennius, Merlin appeared as a young boy, but under the name of Emrys or as Ambrosius in Latin, with the British king, Vortigern. In a similar account with Vortigern, it was Geoffrey ofMerlin wore many hats: he was a wizard or sorcerer, a prophet, a bard, an adviser and a tutor. He appeared as a young boy with no father. He appeared as an old, wise man, freely giving his wisdom to four successive British kings. He was dotting old fool, who couldn't control his lust over beautiful women, who hold him in fear and contempt. He had even appeared as a madman after bloody battle, and had fled into the forest and learned how to talk to the animals, where he became known as the Wild Man of the Woods. Merlin was the last of the druid, the Celtic shaman, priest of nature, and keeper of knowledge, particularly of the arcane secrets. Monmouth, who had named this boy – Merlinus Ambrosius!

Geoffrey of Monmouth composed a similar tale of Merlin's madness, written in Latin, known as Vita Merlin or the "Life of Merlin", in 1150. In this version, he was known as Merlin Calidonius. Here, he has a sister and a wife, but there's no mention of his parents. It is the only text that mentioned Merlin having a wife.

Many scholars were puzzled over his birth, his magical power, his prophetic gifts and his mysterious yet often conflicting fate.

First of all, Geoffrey of Monmouth wasn't the first writer who recorded event about Merlin in his Historia regum Britanniae ("History of the Kings of Britain", c. 1137). In fact, how Merlin had gain his power in the Historia regum Britanniae was different to Geoffrey's later work called Vita Merlini ("Life of Merlin", c. 1152). These two contradictory works had led many scholars to believe that there are two different people with the same name, Merlin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sophmonky127 (talk • contribs) 15:47, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

You're a bit confused. Please read the article for information on the development of the Merlin figure. If you have specific questions or suggestions regarding article content, please bring them up.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:54, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

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Dragon

Why does this page refer to Níðhöggr & the European Dragon? What does Merlin have to do with objects of such draconian nature? 92.32.20.127 (talk) 14:09, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

When was this proven?

The opening paragraph reads... "is based on an amalgamation of previous historical and legendary figures. Geoffrey combined existing stories of Myrddin Wyllt (Merlinus Caledonensis), a North Brythonic prophet and madman with no connection to King Arthur, with tales of the Romano-British war leader Ambrosius Aurelianus to form the composite figure he called Merlin Ambrosius" Er, when was this ever proven? I've read a lot of the research concerning the various Arthurian legends and their sources, and absolutely NONE of this has ever been proven to be any more then a theory, even if a relatively valid one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.76.69.33 (talk) 00:42, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Merlin and The Mist of Avalon

Merlin played a big part on The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley. Quoting the wikipedia page, in this retelling, "Merlin" is a title rather than a proper name. His role was passed from man to man, first as Taliesin and then as Kevin.

Taliesin is "the old Archdruid and harpist of Avalon. He is revered by Christian and pagan alike as a wise, kind old man. He fathered Igraine, Morgause and Niniane. His mental health continually deteriorates throughout the story.

Kevin succeeds Taliesin after his death. He is a horribly disfigured hunchback, having been burned in a fire as a child, but can sing like an angel. He becomes Morgaine's lover and later her worst enemy. Foreseeing the demise of pagan ways, he betrays Avalon. In an ultimate attempt to unite Christianity and Avalon, so Avalon will survive, he brings the Holy Grail to Camelot. To punish him for this atrocity, Morgaine sets up Nimue to seduce and then betray him, and wants to torture him to death as a traitor. But before the torture begins, Morgaine changes her mind and has him executed swiftly out of mercy, and at the same time, a bolt of lightning incinerates the Holy Oak of Avalon. Morgaine understands that Avalon is doomed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.157.192.57 (talk) 10:30, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Historical Merlin, and the Alleged Finding of the "Actual" location of Avalon (in the New World)

I thought I would put this here, as there is no reference to it. A book was published by Graham Philllips back in 2005 (Bear & Company, USA) entitled "Merlin and the Discovery of Avalon in the New World."

In this volume, Phillips puts forth a reasonable hypothesis that Merlin was a real person, by the name of Ambrosius Aurelius. He also proffers the idea that Avalon may have actually be located off the coast of North America, and that Manana Island may bear the burial ground of Merlin, although Phillips did not actually locate any burial there when he visited (in the depths of winter). Interestingly, Phillips discovers that there are traditional stories told in northern France that deal with the consecration of swords in what are believed to be sacred water places,and Phillips points out that this may be the origin of the story of the Lady of the Lake, and the sword Excalibur is given to Merlin (who in turn gives Excalibur to Arthur).

Another decently reasonable hypothesis put forward by Phillips in the book is that St. Brendan and Merlin (due to the close time proximity) may have actually ventured over to North America on the same trip. By finding out what the name of Merlin would be in the Irish language--Maelduin--Phillips located an Irish saga "written in the eighth century" entitled "Immram Curaig Maelduin Inso" "The Voyage of Merlin's Boat," which tracks in many ways closely to Saint Brendan's passage story, but with the added wrinkle of showing details that indicate of getting farther on along the coastline of North America, which Phillips interprets as perhaps Labrador, or even further south to the New England area.

Phillips also puts forward the notion that "Merlin" was not the person's actual name, but a labeling--"person with Eagle sight." Unlike many "armchair generals," Phillips has attempted to actually visit the places that he writes about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.72.121.226 (talk) 20:33, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

This Article Ignores A Major And Encyclopedic Work Digging Out The Real Truth About St Dubricious aka Merlin.

For this article to totally ignore the encyclopedic and intensely researched work on Merlin of Professor Emeritius Norma Goodrich of Scripps College and Claremont college is ridiculous. Her book is published in 1988 as "Merlin" by Harper Collins. Her dramatic rebuttals of all the false information on Merlin/St Dubricius (one and the same person) of course has raised the ire of academicia that have been repeating the same old claptrap for hundreds of years. Norma provides intensive references and she provides all the evidence on both sides of the story. Then she systematically goes and demolishes all the false information by showing the contradictions in these sources. She should be lauded and praised for showing that the Lady Of the Lake was a masterful healer and would never even consider murdering her teacher, master and friend Merlin/Dubricius by destroying the credibility of the sources alleging the murder. She exposed all the medieval slander and hatred of women and resultant slander against the Magnificent Lady Of The Lake. Of course "real" scholars would attempt to discredit her when she exposes them for repeating all the slander that has occurred for many centuries against the Lady Of the Lake and even Merlin aka St Dubricius.

 She points out the hatred that existed against educated, extremely intelligent and masterful women

from 300 AD up to almost the present age, and may I suggest this is persisting in the belittling of Goodrich. Goodrich uses her excellent skills for logical detection of the truth and obviously this is going to rase the ire and jealousy of academics that have failed to do this. I predict that eventually the arguments of Goodrich will be accepted by logical people and the notions of the present "old Guard" discarded. I have toured Wales with a rugby team and the singing of the Welsh choirs at after game functions reduced me to tears. I love the Welsh and have respect for them but I think it is time for Welsh scholars to open their minds and listen to what Norma has to say. It makes sense. I would gladly re-edit this article but I know what the reaction by present so called historians would be and that I would be wasting my time.

76.171.150.240 (talk) 05:00, 11 August 2014 (UTC) Dr Raymond A. Schep

I gather from your last comment that you are aware that to put it mildly she isn't considered a useful source by Arthurian scholars. A comment about her book Arthur I'll copy from Talk:Historical basis for King Arthur illustrates this:

"What is surprising is that this book claims to be "the first book to have explored very minutely and in the original languages both the historical and the literary material concerning king Arthur" (p. 325). There is medieval material on Arthur in Latin, Welsh, Irish, Breton, French, German, English, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Provengal, Dutch and Old Norse. Professor Goodrich has explored only a fraction of this material. Her examination, far from minute, is uneven and erratic; and far from being first in the field, her work is only one of well over 10,000 items which have appeared since serious study of Arthurian matters began in the last century... The book as a whole is about as reliable as the statement from it just discussed. It is so fundamentally unsound that one would take it as an elaborate joke...

"...in order to profit from these resources, one must know how to use them; one must understand the nature of one's material, and be skeptical, rational, methodical and perceptive. Goodrich, like an Orwellian doublethinker, is capable at one moment of casting doubt on the plainest fact, and at the next, of believing the grossest absurdity... For an Arthurian expert, reading this book is a nightmare: familiar details are there, but in the grossest confusion. Even a non-initiate will probably find that the book de- nounces itself by innumerable inconsistencies and logical absurdities. To correct every error would be a tedious task, particularly as the author gives few references, so that the sources of her mis-statements have to be laboriously tracked down. It would also be pointless, since many excellent books on Arthur exist as ready-made refutations. I shall limit myself to a few examples which may warn the intending reader.

"At times the reader has to grasp desperately after his own departing sanity, as when the author is attempting to rediscover the castle of Blanchefleur from the Perceval romance... Professor Goodrich's linguistics, however, leave her logic in the shade. She claims to be a specialist on the written texts (p. 27), whose difficulty she greatly exaggerates. Anyone with a good knowledge of Modern French can learn to read Old French within weeks. But one may doubt whether Goodrich is a perfect master even of Modern French, since she apparently thinks that " 'o' = the normal masculine ending in French" (p. 173). In linguistics she is lost. Two astonishing examples will suffice... Professor Goodrich regularly mangles the history, literature, and language both of the Dark Ages (which she does nothing to illuminate) and of the High Middle Ages (which she totally fails to understand). But modem critics fare no better. If they agree (?) with her, they are "brilliant," but if they "disagree" they are insulted...

And so on... This is from Rosemary Morris's review of Goodrich's Arthur book, in the well-regarded and learned journal Albion, 19.3 (1987),

Dougweller (talk) 10:16, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Prose Brut

In the lead it says "Prose Brut" like I´m supposed to understand what that means, but I don´t. Is it the same as Layamon's Brut? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:59, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Merlin's name

Dear WP editors, Merlin WP entry I first posted on 1st January 2016. I refer to one small addition that I put forward for inclusion in the Merlin entry, under the heading 'Name and Etymology'. This item presently says, “The name "Merlin" is derived from the Welsh Myrddin…” I do not ‘say’ that the name ‘Merlin’ is derived from the Scottish Gaelic name Myrddin, I simply ‘suggest’ this. I go on to specify the two Gaelic words that make up the name Myrddin, with reference to the relevant etymological dictionary, including the relevant page number. I go on to suggest, with reference to the name Blaise, Merlin’s mentor, that there is corroboration for the above (not that corroboration is necessary because the above, re ‘Merlin’, speaks for itself, does it not?). Again, I provide dictionary and page references. The WP rules say, “To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented.” I submit that I have done this, and more, I have cited a reliable (although this would be for a reader to decide), published source that is directly relevant to the man called Merlin and which supports, by putting the whole matter in context, the material being presented. I cannot see that what I suggest is materially different from what AOH Jarman suggests a few lines later, except, perhaps, he is mainstream and I am not. I don’t know about you but I think it more likely that the name Myrddin was derived from Mer-Duine (Madman) than that it was derived from Caerfyrddin, but that’s just me. People can decide for themselves… given the chance. Now that I am more familiar with the WP rules, I accept that the second passage I submitted for inclusion is out of line. Best wishes DunardryDunardry (talk) 09:36, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum for you to push your own pet theories. It doesn't matter that you "think it more likely that the name Myrddin was derived from Mer-Duine"; if you cannot cite any serious, academic scholarship on this topic, your etymological musings have no place here. Cagwinn (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Also note, re: your comment "the name ‘Merlin’ is derived from the Scottish Gaelic name Myrddin", that Myrddin is Welsh, not "Scottish Gaelic". Cagwinn (talk) 17:41, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Connection with Stobo Kirk - suggestion for inclusion

Some materials concerning the link between Merlin and Stobo Kirk (in the Scottish Borders) have been deleted from the Myrddin Wyllt page on the basis that they refer to the medieval conflation of figures into 'Merlin' rather than to the original Myrddin Wyllt. I think it would be worthwhile to add these materials to the Merlin page but I'm not sure where or how (as an inexperienced editor). The materials can be seen here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myrddin_Wyllt&oldid=758422647

Merlin being converted to Christianity by Saint Kentigern (Mungo) at Stobo Kirk, Borders, Scotland

Gilgamesh4 (talk) 19:17, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Removed long quote to turn into prose somewhere at the end of the article (or possibly just fringe)

According to Breton legend, the legendary wise man Merlin climbed the Pine of Barenton (from bel nemeton, "Sacred Grove of Bel"), just as shamans climb the World Tree. Here, he had a profound revelation and he never returned to the mortal world. In later versions, Merlin's glas tann was mistranslated as a "glass house". It is actually a living tree (from the Cornish glas "(ever)green", and tann, "sacred tree"), and from these words the name of Glastonbury, in Somerset, England is sometimes derived. Hence, according to legend, it is a sacred tree in which the soul of Merlin awaits his return.

--94.246.150.68 (talk) 08:45, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

I also removed an alleged version of Merlin's end as being destroyed by Arthur that's been 'citation needed' for 6 years. --94.246.150.68 (talk) 08:51, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

References

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Unused sources

• "Oxford English Dictionary". 2008. Retrieved June 7, 2010. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
• Arbrois De Jubainville, H., "Merlin est-il un personage historique?". Revue des questions historiques 5, 1868.
• Breton-Guay, Neomie, Merlin l'Enchanteur dans les images de la renaissance arthurienne. 2006.
• Cadieux-Larochelle, Josee, Pour forger un mythe: les avatars de Merlin. 1996.
• Castleden, Rodney, King Arthur: The Truth Behind the Legend. London, New-York, G. Routhledge, 2000.
• Donnard, Ana, Merlin, L'intermediaire des mondes. Minas Gerais Federal University.
• Dumezil, Georges, Mythes et Dieux des Indo-europeens. Flammarion, 1992.
• Gaster, M, "The Legend of Merlin", Folk-Lore, 1905.
• Gaster, M, The Legend of Merlin: A Postscript, Folklore, 1905.
• Gill, N.S., "Who was Merlin and was Merlin Real?". Ancient/Classical History. 2007.
• Heather, P.J., Divination, Folklore, 1954.
• Hersart, Theodore, Myrdhin ou l'enchanteur Merlin: son histoire, ses oeuvres, son influence. Paris, Terre de Brume, 1989.
• Holdstock, Robert, Le graal de fer, Paris, Pocket, 2006.
• La Croix, Arnaud de, Arthur, Merlin et le Graal, un mythe revisite, Monaco, Editions du Rocher, 2001.
• Norris J. Lacy (1991). The New Arthurian Encyclopedia. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-0-8240-4377-3.
• Rider, Jeff, The Fictional Margin: The Merlin of the Brut, Modern Philology, 1989, University of Chicago Press.
• Torregrossa, Michael A. “Merlin Goes to the Movies: The Changing Role of Merlin in Cinema Arthuriana.” Film & History: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Film and Television Studies 29.3–4 (1999): 54–65.
• Torregrossa, Michael A. “The Way of the Wizard: Reflections of Merlin on Film." The Medieval Hero on Screen: Representations from Beowulf to Buffy. Eds. Martha W. Driver and Sid Ray. Jefferson, NC: McFarland, 2004. pp. 167–91.

--SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 19:21, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Does a verb get a capital letter?

Hi The Lord of Math.

Just a question: you've (I think it's you!) capitalised the word 'Latinised' in the following

Geoffrey of Monmouth Latinised the name to Merlinus in his works. Geoffrey of Monmouth Latinised the name to Merlinus in his works.

I would have thought that, latinised being a verb, it's not a candidate for capitalisation. I could be wrong, and things may be different in America, just curious. (I don't think that whether latinised/Latinised is capitalised or not is important, as I said, just curious.) Cheers, Maryanne Cunningham (talk) 15:44, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

@Maryanne Cunningham: No. it's not me, it's Iridescent who made the change in this edit. You have a point, but so does that editor. I think it's best for you; I have no rights to intervene. tLoM (The Lord of Math) (Message) 00:47, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

It's not totally straightforward (which is why we can't set a bot standardising it). As a rough rule of thumb, in British English (and most other commonwealth variants) "Latinise", "Christianise", "Anglicise" etc are capitalised, in Canadian English they're usually lower-case but capitals are always acceptable, and in AmEng it splits about 50-50 depending on personal preference. A useful thought experiment is "if this article were about a missionary, would I write that the Islamisicsed population had been Christianised, or that the islamicised population had become christianised?". On a topic like this, which is pretty much the embodiment of MOS:TIES, I would think British usage should automatically take precedence. (The relevant section of the MOS just says the rather unhelpful Romanize, Latinize, and related words are sometimes lowercased in a linguistic context in particular, but more often capitalized on the matter.) ‑ Iridescent 20:46, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Iridescent Fab, thanks for explanation Maryanne Cunningham (talk) 13:42, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Should there be a page or section for esplumoir?

I've collected some sources here regarding mentions and descriptions of Merlin's esplumoir (linked on this page to fr:Esplumoir Merlin) in the hopes of providing some more information on the subject, but I'm not sure if it warrants its own page or if it should be added here somewhere. Does anyone have thoughts on this? Emflazie (talk) 15:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

December 2022

@Skyerise: Good evening. I noticed that, in good faith, you reverted my recent edit arguing that "myth" is not synonymous with "legend." While I do understand this, I would like to point out to you that Merlin is very much the more fictional, and I believe that "mythical" is more appropriate to describe him than "legendary," as the character has very little basis in real history. GOLDIEM J (talk) 17:13, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

If you read the article, you will see that Merlin had an historical basis. Legend is what builds up around a once-historical figure. Myth is generally about gods. Skyerise (talk) 17:19, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Alternative spelling

This edit [2], which I already previously reverted as "not lead worthy" has been reasserted by an IP. Now there is no disagreement that you can find texts that use the spelling of Merlyn as well as those that go with Merlin. It is not wrong, nor even contentious. But that is not the reason I reverted it. The reason it does not belong in the lead is it is simply not an interesting fact, as anyone with any understanding of medieval orthography would immediately understand. Of course it had that spelling too. This is not something we need to tell the reader in the first sentence of the lead of the article.

We need Merlin and Myrddin, but do not need orthographical variations of either. I shall remove the addition again. Please discuss here if you wish to explain where my reasoning is in error. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 17:23, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

On the talk page

None of these theories were ever proven or disproven in any way, none of them are "more plausible" just because a rival author declared so - Wikipedia must be neutral on matters that aren't factual and it's just pet theories with zero medieval sources actually stating any of this.

All of which should be absolutely obvious to anyone who knowd anything about the subject: WE DON'T KNOW AT ALL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Merlin&diff=1196900414&oldid=1196900157 - revert taking sides about things JUST NO ONE KNOWS.

Also, it may be rephrased further to make clear "it" means that the legend of Saint Martin could have been inspired by the Merlin stories (in the "or vice versa" meaning - the chicken or egg paradox, if there's even any connection between the 2 figures at all, because, of course, WE DON'T KNOW).

5.173.4.130 (talk) 20:47, 18 January 2024 (UTC)